Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm

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EDGED WEAPON TACTICS AND COUNTER TACTICS:

Edged weapons are amongst the most ancient of implements used by human adversaries engaged in interpersonal conflict. Their use tends to culminate in the premature extinction of one and sometimes both parties. Unfortunately the potential lethality of the blade is not always realized or taken into account when confronting a knife-wielding attacker. There is a commonly held view that a person armed with a knife is less dangerous than a person armed with a firearm. The truth is that within their practical ranges both weapons are capable of fatal life stopping wounds. Some interesting facts include:

U.K. studies:

* Edged weapon assaults are the most commonly used weapon for killing people (7 in 20)
* In half the incidents of muggings on men the offender is armed with a sharp instrument

North America:

* One in three chance that if faced with a subject who had an edged weapon, you will be attacked and injured
* Attacks with edged weapons usually occur when you least expect them
* In Victoria BC Canada, our police department has found an increase of 35% in the number of calls that they deal with where an edged weapon was involved
* In 1994, out of the 7 murders in Victoria, 6 were committed with knives
* The majority of �street� type people carry some kind of edged weapon be it legal or illegal.

FBI Statistics:

* Edged weapon attackers are responsible for 3% of all armed attacks of police
* Firearm attacks account for 4%
* Both of the above stats represent fatalities
* Subject shot, 10% die from their wounds
* Subjects stabbed, 30% die from their wounds

Calibre Press:

* Since 1980 the number of people routinely carrying knives in North America has increased by 92%

I have personally gathered research form around the world on edged weapon assaults and the following facts emerged during my research:

* The most popular assault technique utilized by the attacker was found to be the hammer strike � either straight down or diagonally
* The victim tends to squat in an effort to take a path which offers perceived escape
* Many people seldom saw the edged weapon that penetrated their body. They failed to recognize the danger cues due to faulty perception
* Knife attacks were found to be exceptionally accurate, to penetrate deeper that some bullets, creating remarkable permanent cavities and rip through numerous organs in one stroke
* In reality, within their respective ranges, knives are superior to firearms as far as lethality is concerned

Within its range, a Knife:

* Never runs out of ammunition
* Never jams
* Never misfires
* Rarely misses target
* Cuts bone, tendon, muscles, arteries, veins with one thrust
* Can bring about sudden shock, pain, and extended wound channels
* It has better stopping capabilities
* Is psychological defeating
* Has superior concealment capabilities
* It occupies a permanent wound channel until extracted, at which time, if the blade is withdrawn from a lung, consciousness is rapidly lost

I have also attended several autopsies involving edged weapon deaths and in speaking with Forensic Pathologists have found the following medical facts:



* Typical death of a stab wound in homicide cases is 1 inch to 1.5 inches through the rib cage
* In most edged weapon attacks the victim received multiple knife wounds. The usual cause of death are usually the last few wounds of the overall attack
* Even short bladed knives can penetrate the abdomen by 8-10cm
* 3cm allows penetration of the ribs
* 4cm allows penetration of the heart
* because of the small surface area of a knife, the amount of force per unit area is TONS per square inch

The above noted information shows the importance of training to deal with such encounters. A person�s ability to deal with such situations will be based on his/her TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE. Experience is something not easily acquired, proper training can save lives by preparing you both physically and psychologically. Remember that most edged weapon assaults take place unexpectedly and so quickly that it is not unusual for the defender not to have time to realize that an edged weapon is involved. The attacker who possess an edged weapon usually does not want to convey in any way that he has one, and will usually conceal it until such time as he can deploy it quickly against you. Although a reality, it is a rarity that the attacker will produce his weapon in full view prior to an assault.

As I continued to conduct me research into edged weapon assaults on both police officers and the general public I was also able to identify three common denominators that seem to be present in many edged weapon assaults:
* In most edged weapon attacks, the defender is already involved in the physical encounter way before he or she even has time to realize that a knife is being used
* Most defenders see a thrust or slice with a knife as just another punch or kick and not an edged weapon assault
* It was difficult if not impossible for the defender to differentiate between an attack with an edged weapon or an attack using hands of feet. This was especially true when the defender was not aware from the start of the assault , that the attacker had a knife


I�m a big believer in, �don�t tell me, show me� so in early 1992 I conducted an empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a scenario based training session where unknown to them, they would be attacked with a knife. The attacker, who was dressed in a combatives suit, was told that during mid way of the contact, they were to pull a knife that they had been concealing, flash it directly at the officer saying �I�m going to kill you pig� and then engage the officer physically. The results were remarkable:

� 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact

� 10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario

� 72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives


When I reviewed the hours of video tape of the above noted scenarios, I also made several other interesting observations in how the majority of officers reacted to the attacks:

* most attempted to disengage from the attacker by backing away from the threat. This usually resulted in the attacker closing quite quickly with their victim
* Those officers that did engage the threat immediately, proceeded to block the initial strike of the attacker and then immediately began to grapple with the attacker using elbows and knee strikes, but FAILED TO CONTROL THE DELIVERY SYSTEM RESULTING IN A LARGE NUMBER OF LETHAL BLOWS WITH THE KNIFE.
* Most of the scenarios ended up on the ground


After making these observations, I began to ask myself why I was seeing the above noted reactions. In my research I had the opportunity to read an article authored by Bruce Siddle and Dr. Hal Breedlove entitled � Survival Stress Reaction� . In this article Siddle and Breedlove sated:



� research by numerous studies provide two clear messages why people will place themselves in bad tactical situations. The common phenomena of backing away under survival stress results from the visual systems deterioration of the peripheral field to attain more information regarding threat stimulus. Since the brain is demanding more information to deal with the threat, he officer will invariably retreat from the threat to widen the peripheral field. Secondly, the brains normal ability to process (analyze and evaluate) a wide range of information quickly is focused to specific items. Therefore, additional cues, which would normally be processed, are lost. This explains why people can not remember seeing or identifying specific facts which were relatively close to the threat.�

The above noted research by Siddle and Breedlove not only confirmed my findings but also answered why our officers were acting they were. It also explains why one officer, who had actually caught the attackers knife hand with both of his hands and was looking directly at the knife, stated �I didn�t see any knife� It was not until I showed the video that he believed there was a knife.





Based upon all the above noted observations, I began to research a number of edged weapon defensive tactics programs that were being offered to both police officers and citizen. I attended several programs across North America and in doing so, I found that many of the programs although practical in a training environment, were totally unrealistic for the reality of the street. Many of these programs had several pitfalls:

� Most assumed the defender knew that the attacker possessed an edged weapon. ( what good is this assumption when we know that the majority of attacks with knives the defender did not know the attacker had a knife)

� Most techniques being taught were to complicated for people to remember ( to many fine complex motor skills which we know do not translate when survival stress clicks in no matter how well trained)

� Most techniques neglected the not so frozen limbs which the attacker still possessed and would use if not neutralized.

� Most techniques being taught concentrated on controlling the knife hand rather than the delivery system. ( the hand moves faster than the eye in a spontaneous attack. As well if cut, blood is a very good lubricant and makes grabbing the knife hand, even with two hands, very difficult if not impossible. To replicate this, use some baby oil during your next edged weapon defensive tactics class)

� Most techniques being taught were designed to be used against a static (stemming) attack.. (Real knife assaults are not static but fluid and dynamic in nature)

� Most techniques were designed to be used against what I call wide �Hollywood� motion attacks. ( most knife assaults are short and multiple in nature)

� Most techniques were designed to be used under perfect conditions of the dojo or training studio. ( most would not work if fighting/rolling around in the mud, the blood, and the beer of an �open� rather than �closed� environment


When looking for a Realistic Edged Weapon Tactics/ Counter tactics Program you should ensure that you pick one that teaches:\



1) AWARENESS STRATEGIES

2) REALISTIC HANDS ON COUNTER TACTICS WHICH FOLLOW THE S.A.F.E. PRINCIPAL. Simple Adaptable Fast and Effective

Awareness strategies start with the above noted information on stats and facts.




TYPES OF ATTACKERS:

There are two types of attackers that you will have to deal with, Skilled and unskilled. Although it is a nicety to know the difference between the two types of attacker, it is very important to remember that both are as equally as dangerous. Remember it is not the skill level of the attacker but rather the desperation factor that makes him so dangerous. As well, in a dynamic spontaneous assault involving an edged weapon, you will probably not have the time to assess your attackers skill level. This is why it is so important that any counter edged weapon program you use, it must work against both the unskilled and skilled attacker. I say:


IF THE SUBJECT PULLS A KNIFE CONSIDER HIM TO BE AN EXPERT


The best defense against an edged weapon is to not get into one in the first place. Watch for edged weapons, this means watching a person�s hands. I have stated for years that the only assumption I make in a fight is that the person I an dealing with may have a concealed weapon that I don�t see.


By being aware of the ways in which a person may deploy an edged weapon may give you the advantage to with the encounter. This means, get to know the technology available. Visit you local knife/ army surplus stores and see what is available. Also look into how this technology is deployed:

* Listen for the unsnapping of a button on a knife case
* Listen for Velcro opening
* Listen for the click of a lock blade
* Movement behind the back
* Drawing motion of the arm/elbow
* The way in which a person may be packing a visible knife. A buck knife case that is holstered with the snap opening down lets you know that this person had thought about using gravity to deploy the knife quickly.
* Palming

In my program I have over 50 slides of actual knife wounds that I also show to further bring to light the issue of awareness and respect for the blade.

TYPES OF GRIPS AND STROKES:

There are as many gripes and strokes as there are people carrying knives. Is it important to know and understand how an attacker may be holding an edged weapon when it comes to defense. NO !!!!! I believe that the only important thing for you to understand is that the attacker is attacking with a knife. Again, in a dynamic and spontaneous knife attack you will likely not know how the weapon is being held. So if you have learned a system of edged weapon defense that is dependant upon how the knife is being held, good luck using it in the real word !!!!!

WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DO GET CUT:


* Do not panic
* Consciously make yourself breath slower (autogenic breathing)
* Inspect yourself and look for injuries seen and more importantly not seen
* Apply direct pressure to wounds
* If injury are to limbs, elevate if possible
* If you have a chest wound, seal it and protect your airway in case you go unconscious, you don�t want to drown in your own blood
* If you have a punctured lung, exhale first and use an air tight article to cover and seal the wound
* Mental commitment � I�m going to Live�

PRINCIPALS OF PAT, WRAP, AND ATTACK EDGED WEAPON COUNTER TACTICS:


1) Respect the blade The person who attacks with an edged weapon has two incredible advantages.

* PSYCHOLOGICAL: has chosen to use the weapon ruthlessly
* PHYSICAL: usually has first strike advantage

Again remember, it is the desperation factor and not the technical skill alone that makes a person armed with an edged weapon so dangerous

2) Expect to get cut. You will likely get cut, bleed, may or may not feel pain. A program that teaches students not to expect this fact is NEGLIGENT. Your goal is to �WIN� notice I use the word �WIN� and not �SURVIVE�. Words are very powerful. The word SURVIVE is no different than the word �TRY�. Both of these words to the subconscious mind mean �FAILURE�. Our goal is to WIN, survival is a by-product of winning.


3) Neutralize the line of attack. In any kind of combatives it is important to get you body of the line of attack.. Remember in a knife fight you will get cut and stuck, the secret is to limit the amount/degree of this damage. Unlike a fist fight, you can not stand there and take multiple blows with a knife


4) Control the delivery system. In the system of Pat Wrap and Attack we do not play the knife hand but rather the delivery system ( arm/elbow) In hockey do you play the puck or do you play the man. You play the man why, the puck moves to quick. In a knife fight don�t visually lock onto the knife hand it moves far to fast when compared to the arm/elbow. We also do not attempt to grab the knife hand in a dynamic situation for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. Small target, slippery when blood is present Remember than most edged weapon deaths are associated with serious multiple blows. Why, person failed to control the delivery system. The delivery system is the arm (lever), if we can control the lever we control the blade. The only exception to this rule is in a static knife hold up where the knife hand is not moving and can easily be controlled with two hands.


5) Attack the attack.. I believe that so long as the attacker has the opportunity to continue his attack, he has a strong tactical advantage, with a strong psychological advantage as well. Both of these advantages must be neutralized as soon as possible by throwing the attacker on the defensive.


I have been involved in FOUR separate edged weapon attacks which I �won�, and I have had one person die in my arms from an edged weapon attack.. There are a lot of edged weapon defense programs out there that are designed to get you KILLED because they do not deal with reality. Do your homework. I have attempted to summarize some of the reasons for the development of my 8 hr Pat. Wrap, and Attack system in this post. This system is being used around the world and has saved many lives. Knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power.

Strength and Honor

Darren Laur

Integrated Street Combatives

Victoria, BC

Canada

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Whoa, there. I hope the author has smartened up since then. If you repeatedly find yourself in such situations, you're doing something wrong, and this does not enhance my respect for your life skills.

The rest of the article was good. An assailant with a blade is a special sort of animal. If you recognize that he has a knife, he gains the psychological high ground. If you don't know that he has a knife, he owns you.

Knives scare me more than guns, because they don't announce themselves so definitively.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Stay away from bars, clubs, parks at night. Stay away from atm machines that you feel are at a place unsafe. Best bet, I think, is to run away from any potential knife fight..

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Running away , Putting something between yourself and the attacker--even another attacker.

I don't see another way to deal with a sudden close knife.

E-A

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Um well, on the job as a cop?

I can imagine that wirhout too much trouble.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Okay, now I get it.

All those discussions with forensic pathologists make sense in that light.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Great thread!I`m a knifeknut and I will link this to bladeforums.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Good Info!

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

The punk has to avoid my hollow-points or 00 buckshot in order to stab me.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Spyderco Delica $40

I'm left-handed and have carried this in my front left pocket for years without incident. It is very light, contoured to the pocket and hand, and can be very very quickly opened with a flick using the thumb hole. Lock blade. The factory edge really is extremely razor-sharp.

I think ever showing a knife is foolish. The element of surprise is everything.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

This info is USELESS.

The MAJORITY of EVERY GUN FIGHT HERE IN THE USA occurs at a range of 7 ft. The total number of shots fired is THREE.

So, what, you are going to THROW your knife at a person who has a gun, HAS PRODUCED IT, WHICH MEANS HE/SHE IS PREPARED TO USE IT.

This is the 'typical' anti-gun bravado from countries where guns are banned OR are about to be banned.

I've used FATS systems that are used by police departments here in the USA. I've been placed in 'scenarios' where I was confronted by knife weilding thugs. ALL WENT DOWN to two well placed shots.

Your knife ONLY WORKS if you allow anyone within your 'zone of comfort' (arm's length or further). IF you allow ANYONE the ability to get that close, then you are subject to their whims. IF NOT, I don't care how fast you are, two rounds of .45 acp will definately be faster.

"Always know if your weapon's safety is on or off"

"Never RUSH the mound if the pitcher has the ball"

Both are similar pieces of advice.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

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Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

The video is bullshit. The cops are sitting ducks because that's what the script said.

In such a scenario, no one in their right mind will have the firearm in their holster. Even better is when the punk has a knife and I have my 12 gauge.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

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Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Very informative. Thanks.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I like the aluminum bolo trainer.It`s unfair because the cop doesn`t have the gun in hand but the BG has the knife in hand already.I`ve never used a knife on a person and I hope I never will.I`ve drawn it twice,once on a guy and once on a dog,both times without further trouble as the guy was simply pissing behind a tree while it looked to me in the dark he was about to ambush me(long time ago in USSR).The dog was a pitbull here off the leash who ran towards me at 6am and the moron drugdealer owner called it back in time.




The best carry SD knife is Simonich Crowfoot,scroll down a bit to see it:
http://simonichknives.com/midtech.htm

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

What makes the Crowfoot better than the others?

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

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Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Pinky ring hole makes it undisarmable and a part of your skeletal system.The blade profile is both utilitarian and useful for SD unlike the traditional hookblade karambit.It`s a sweet knife.I used to have it,sold it and had a knifemaker make me a similar design but in 3/16" stock instead of 1/8".When you hold it,you forget about gripping it and are free to think about where to stick it only.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I like the pinky ring hole. It does seem like it would be very difficult to disarm.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

</P>
Nice antithesis to the video's posted above. You beat me to it.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

With the ring knives one shouldn`t worry about disarming as it could occur only posthumously.PS.Ask Ted Frizzell to make one of your specs,he is the nicest and most affordable guy ever.http://www.plan-a.org/mmhw/index.htm

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I don't think it is wise to underestimate how leathal a knife can be. A gun is better but even if you have one if you get caught off guard you will be in big trouble. It is worthwhile to get some training in knife defense as well as offense.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Oh, I don't underestimate bladed lethality. Hence, why I choose to use a firearm against all foreseeable knife-wielding opponents.

Unforeseeable events definitely needs knowledge of tactics to avoid being stabbed/slashed.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

and so the bee was born....

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Thanks, I will check him out. I am very pro-gun but there is nothing wrong with carrying a good knife as well.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Gun rights were one of the main reason for my infatuation with USA as a Russian boy.Little did I know that in NYC one can march in a NAMBLA parade but not carry a gun.So,I switched back to my lifelong knife addiction.GEt a ringed knife with a pocket kydex sheath designed to be pushed off with the thumb.Have you hand in the pocket and the pinky in the ring+the thumb on the sheath,it takes only a second to produce the knife.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Those cops were slow on the draw. I am sure the gun slingers in the old west were much faster than that.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Condition YELLOW:

NEVER allowing ANYONE get within 20 feet of your person. If you can't maintain that, it's YOUR problem.

People wonder why I avoid crowds and NEVER go anywhere unarmed.

I can disarm ANY person with a knife. Right after I shoot him four or five times. They generally don't argue much when they are dead.

If you don't live in condition yellow, you reap what you sow. If you depend upon OTHERS for your security, you will be SADLY disappointed.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Stay off sidewalks, stairways, and out of hallways.

Attachment 26931 get real or stay home

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Anyone here seen the totally composite knifes (no metal)? they are ultrathin and lightweight... and (FWIW) completely undetectible by a metal detector.

I don't think they'd slice too well, but they should stab anyway. @ $20 at my gun shop (www.jensenarms.com).

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Yeah. I own TWO of them. Passes right through a metal detector. I've tested them.

Not a 'slicing' weapon, but you could 'icepick' anyone and they would BLEED like a stuck pig...

Now where's that thread on stopping the bleeding of a stuck pig at...:rofl:

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Save your money and just carry a pen or pencil. For sticking not cutting.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

That or a tungsten carbide marker with a steel body,10$ at Home Depot.PS>Plastic knives are a one-way ticket to Gitmo.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Wallew, that sounds a bit unrealistic to me. Your signature states that you are a bartender. How did you do so without letting anyone come within 20 feet?

I think the best bet is to simply use good judgement. Know your surroundings. Be aware of what's going on around you. Isolating yourself from the world because you think somebody may come at you with a knife, is no way to live.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Just curious....you ever get one past security at an airport? Ever been caught?

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Great point!! :bear_thumb:

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Veritas,is that Stallone in your avatar?

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

There are many tactcal advantages to knives if you dont at least understand
those (let alone employ them yourself for self defense) all you skill faith and knowledge with firearms could be wasted.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

There are many tactcal advantages to knives if you dont at least understand
those (let alone employ them yourself for self defense) all you skill faith and knowledge with firearms could be wasted.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

When a man with a knife, fights a man with a pistol, the man with the knife, is a dead man. And it's true.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

if you the man with the drawn pistol and I have a drawn knife im pretty sure
id be a dead man however someone good with a knife probably would not
let you know they had it in there hand untill it was to late or do you seriously
pull your pistol on every person that comes with in 10 feet of you.just to be sure? im not saying that knives are better than guns just that somebody
who understands how knives could be used to gain a tactical advantage
is better able to protect against them.

silence,concealability,reliability,never runs out of ammo, range,lethality
availability

think about it

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

A stainless steel Cross or similar pen. :bear_thumb:

A "legitimate" tool able to be carried EVERYWHERE without the heavy liability of a blade. Just like a multi-cell Maglite as opposed to a billyclub.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Everything in my signature I HAVE DONE. How do you be a bartender without letting THE PUBLIC within twenty feet of you?

You be the bartender at a high end hotel in their high end restuarant. If you eat in the restuarant AND order a drink, the guy doesn't GO to the bar that's IN the hotel. He goes to the BARTENDER in the kitchen. ALL the highend hotels have this setup. AND a GOOD WAITER will slip you a tip if they get a good one every once and a while.

THAT'S HOW YOU BE A BARTENDER AND DON'T LET THE PUBLIC GET WITHIN 20 FEET OF YOU. Truth is, I rarely saw more than about four or five specific waiters and one or two cooks who I swapped alcohol for food. Always a good deal for all concerned.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Nope. It's Balboa. :wink:

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

You are man of many trades. Good for you, Wallew.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

My eyes are bad. Thought it was the statue of Liberty!

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Bladed weapons have some advantages that guns don't. There are all the ones damoc listed. I'll add a few points to each.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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silence - Quieter than even silenced weapons. Also no muzzle flash to give away your position in the dark or temporarily blind you. Perfect weapon for close range assassination.<o:p></o:p>
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conceal ability - Better than any gun I know of. I have one fixed blade that I can carry wearing sandals, shorts or tight pants, and a fitted tee and it leaves no imprint or funny bulges. No coats on warm days, oversized clothing, suspicious fanny packs or bulges by your kidneys or front pockets to make someone think you might have a weapon.<o:p></o:p>
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reliability - A good fixed blade will never break or jam on you.<o:p></o:p>
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never runs out of ammo - pretty much self explanatory<o:p></o:p>
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range - This is one of the more interesting points about blades. A firearm shoots a projectile in a straight line at high velocity which is its greatest strength. If you have some distance between yourself and your knife wielding assailant than you have the upper hand. The knife on the other hand can be thrust in a straight line or used to slash in varying arcs the width being the length of the blade used. Once in close the blade has the upper hand. <o:p></o:p>
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If someone pulls a hand gun on you and you happen to be within a few feet you can avoid the attack by trapping or deflecting the muzzle in a safe direction. You can accomplish this by actually putting your hand on the weapon. If you are lucky you may be able to get a hold of the cylinder in a revolver or the slide on a pistol to prevent another round from being chambered. Obviously this is much harder said than done. Ideally you would realize a gun is being drawn before it is actually pointed your direction.<o:p></o:p>
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Stopping a knife is much harder. You don't know for sure what trajectory the attack will come from. So blocking the knife is very difficult. Someone with some skill may intentionally target your limbs to prevent you from drawing your own weapon. You can't grab the blade itself and if you get a hold of the hand or the arm and the assailant is able to pull free you may get cut very badly.<o:p></o:p>
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The knife can be very dangerous in any confined area where it is difficult to get space. Think public washrooms, elevators, store aisles. To say that you always have space is BS.<o:p></o:p>
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lethality - If you've ever cut meat with a very sharp knife you have an idea. Just remember that someone attacking with a knife will be using much more speed and force so the damage done by even a short blade can be pretty incredible.<o:p></o:p>
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availability - Much more common. Pretty much every household has dozens of them. Sold all over the place. A very good blade can be had for much less than a cheap gun that will probably jam on you.<o:p></o:p>
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I would also like to add legality. Here in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region> or States that don't allow you to carry a gun, doing so can land you in a lot of trouble.<o:p></o:p>
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I still would rather have a gun for defense but knives have their place too.<o:p></o:p>

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

OOOH! OOOH! I know this one as well...

Silence - If I stick my .357 2" snubbie against your back and pull the trigger, YOUR BODY is the suppressor and NO SOUND will escape, as long as I'm NOT shooting .357, but .38's. Trust me, a GUN is a much better CLOSE RANGE WEAPON

Concealability - I have a nice pretty RED fanny pack with flowers on it. Matches my Hawaiian shirts quite well. I wear it when I need to carry. In more than twenty years NO ONE has ever 'caught on'. I never understood WHY any gun owner would prefer a black fanny pack to carry his pistol in - it screams CCW. Mine looks right at home on the beach or several other 'outdoor' scenarios.

reliability - neither will a GOOD REVOLVER.

never runs out of ammo - yeah, but you stick someone your KNIFE can snag on a bone and NOT come out - then there you are with your knife sticking out of someone - so I guess you leave it and lose it?

range - the MAJORITY of GUN FIGHTS occur at the distance of 7 feet OR LESS - the average number of shots fired is THREE

WITH YOUR KNIFE, YOU MUST GET WITHIN ARMS REACH TO BE REALLY EFFECTIVE WITH YOUR WEAPON - the guy with the gun will have put at LEAST two rounds into you BEFORE you close the seven feet that he's USED to having to use his firearm at...

Sorry chum, NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT - you will only be carried out feet first

availablity - UNLIKE CANADA, here in the majority of the states of the United States GUNS ARE LITERALLY EVERYWHERE. In a country of 300 million people, 80 million of them own in EXCESS of 300 MILLION FIREARMS - that means there's enough guns for EVERY US CITIZEN to own AT LEAST ONE - sorry chum

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I'm sorry but that is just B.S.

It's kind of a B.S. topic anyway, there isn't really such a thing as a gun fight or a knife fight unless you're talking about some kind of duel. Otherwise there are just fights, weapons and tactics are dictated by scenario.

A skilled hand to hand fighter's reach is more than his arm length. My reach is six feet and that is just purely using body mechanics, my strike distance from a standstill, it doesn't involve running towards the opponent or anything like that. If I can get inside your OODA loop first, which ain't that hard, I can extend that to 8, even 9 feet. All this will happen as fast as you can raise, point and squeeze the trigger on an unholstered pistol in your hand with your arm hanging at your side.

Conversely if somebody has you covered standing with intent to kill you at the slightest movement and they're actually trained and conditioned to be able to do so, you probably won't survive by taking direct action.

If your gun is already out and somebody starts running at you from 15 or 20 feet it is perfectly concievable that you could shoot him if you're at all practiced. If he runs at you from behind you're probably going to bite the dust.

The topic article is a whole nother story. A large part of it is the result of brainstorming in the aftermath of training exercises and probably even a few real encounters. It has some info I would consider good, other info I would consider ridiculous. Much of it is pieced together from so-called "conventional wisdom." Every combatives instructor claims he is/teaches the real deal and every other course out there will just train you to get killed, that is marketing hype. If what he says about his 4 edged weapons encounters is true then it makes sense he stands by his program strongly, he did what he did and he survived which is good enough by anybody's standards. Overall I say good luck listening for that unfastening of a retaining strap on a sheath or the click of a blade locking in a real scenario and this program seems to be structured along the lines of "how to try to not die if you're not a hand to hand specialist and are attacked with a knife." The article reads like a teaser, an advertisement and is fairly content-free as far as practical techniques to use against an edged weapon.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Rev,
Your FIRST MISTAKE IS ASSUMING A WEAPON IS HOLSTERED. OR THAT YOU WOULD EVEN SEE A WEAPON. I can shoot you dead with a 2" snubbie from a light jacket pocket at 10 feet or less. Yes, I've practiced that shot with an old light weight jacket. FROM BOTH POCKETS, with both hands. I used to practice that same shot with a .45 ACP two shot derringer twice a month on a FATS that I ran NUMEROUS scenarios on every chance I got ($30 a half hour - plenty of time to practice about ten scenarios). One of the scenarios I practiced was a large man coming at you with a large kitchen knife.

The thing I liked about this FATS systems was it allowed you to use your own weapon using whatever ammo you wanted to. The backdrop was paper and it showed the shot placement after the sceario with a backlight. It allowed you to replay the shoot in your mind and see where you placed the shots. VERY INSTRUCTIVE.

That .45 derringer was a MOTHER to light off. But once you got used to it, not too bad out to about six feet. After that you lost the ability to control the shot placement. Almost set that lightweight jacket on fire once when I lit that .45 derringer off one time. The .38 rounds didn't seem to have that effect.

You make all SORTS of assumptions. And if you have NEVER had a knife 'stick bone', then you ain't used a knife very often. Go have a LONG TALK with a butcher. I don't care how sharp, how quick, or how GOOD you are with a knife, once it enters a perp you got NO IDEA what happens next. It's a crap shoot at best. Unless it's a 'chopping' weapon, such as a bolo or a machete. But those bound and bounce on bone and muscle on rare occasion.

The ONLY TIME you show a weapon is if you plan to USE that weapon. Many was the time that my weapon went from holstered to pocketed in less time than it took you to read this sentence. BECAUSE I 'felt at unease'. Call it a strange feeling. Or situational awareness. Or living in condition yellow. OR being paranoid. Now, I tend to stay at home and avoid crowds.

For a LONG TIME I carried concealed. Mainly because I lost a friend who I rode motorcycles with in Austin, Texas. She died at the Luby Cafeteria incident many years ago. Her weapon was in her pickup truck in the parking lot. She was eating dinner with her parents and didn't carry it in with her, like she normally would have done because she was with her parents. So I had PLENTY of motivation to keep myself alive. Just by seeing what happens when you let up. Even for a few minutes.

Many, many years ago, my judo instructor used to pick a few 'accelerated' students got to go out with him. He was also a private investigator. He would take us into some of the worst parts of town on a given job, generally just recon before the job started. It was the rare fool who messed with this man or his 'students'.

He was all of 5'4", weighed about 300 lbs and was the FASTEST fat man I have EVER met. He also taught us about how AND WHERE to carry a concealed weapon (s). For ease of access AND for retention purposes. His 'side' gig was teaching Denver PD hand to hand combat in his spare time.

He taught me how to 'enjoy' the art that is judo. Nothing like properly bouncing someone all over the mat. Then have them do the same to you. And I'm 6'1" and 200 lbs (+). But KNOWING how to take being thrown and how to land gives you a whole new perspective on all sorts of fighting techniques.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

sorry walleye this may sound like a bit of sarcasm but i mean it with all sincerity I learned something here today on GIM gun enthusiasts
underestimate the humble knife.Im going to add that to my list of things
that could be turned to the knife wielders tactical advantage.

I have no military training or expierience with knives (only some hunting expierience) I consider myself a dumbs--t with regards to knives but I can tell
you if you if you are 7 feet away and have not already drawn your firearm
unless you have some pretty good unarmed combat skills to buy you some
time and distance then the knife wielding attacker has a major tactical
advantage over you he will be on you before you can find the zipper to your fanny pack flowers or not.

remember most knives up to bout 6 inches blade length can easily be hidden
in pockets, behind the back or simply palmed TRY IT YOURSELF

(lets be honest how many of us actually draw a firearm on every
stranger or suspicious character that gets within 10 feet)

as far as range is concerned even an inexpierienced untrained dums--t
can hit a torso sized target at 20 feet (there is a reason police officers
shoot knife wielding suspects quickly and rightly so they understand
that there tactical advantage of firearm range and trigger pull versus
knife release could quickly be lost)

many of the posts here on GIM concern post shtf what ifs so im going to throw another one out here seems like post shtf without modern manufacturing or supplies much of your firearm support (old ammo worn out parts)would eventually be lost and the person skilled with knives could then
be at a major tactical advantage.To someone trained with knives everyday
tools become very good defense or offense weapons for example screwdrivers
to someone trained with bladed weapons even stone and glass becomes
a deadly weapon.

another thing it only takes me 1 second longer to release a knife than to pull
a trigger thats a important but small advantage to the firearm and one that
could be lost altogether in certain circumstances.

I dont think anyone here realy cosiders a knife the prefered choice for a self defense weapon but it is definately a good one and one well worth learning
about

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

The SAD part is that so many here think that I ONLY carry a firearm.

PLEASE. If you haven't learned edged weapons by now, you best start. Nothing better to learn that than a good judo class. One where you are PHYSICALLY laying hands on someone. Preferably LARGER than you.

We used to practice with one person using the old 'rubber knife' to attack (chalk on the edged part). Especially fun was when the attacker came from the rear. So many options. Perps bounce REALLY WELL in that scenario. My instructor bounced me ALL OVER THE MAT to demonstrate HOW it was done. It hurt my ego more than my back.

And in real life, when I throw someone over a hip and they have NOT studied this art, they end up in a heap. Hopefully they didn't fall on their knife. On the OTHER HAND, if my gun is at hand I WILL use it. I've drawn it twice in about twenty years. In both instances, the agressor became 'extremely apologetic' and start mumbling things that I had apparently misunderstood him (them). Been there, done that.

And I would have shot the perp (s) dead where they stood had they not done EXACTLY what I told them to do.

And here's SOMETHING ELSE to contemplate. You see it all the time in the movies. Someone gets shot and then does the classic 'dying' scene. The truth is there could be buckets of blood. OR none at all. MOST people can absorb several rounds before succumbing. Yes, even smaller caliber rifle rounds (.223 comes to mind).

So just because someone gets shot doesn't mean they are going to go down or die. Unless you have been trained for it. Then it's whatever it takes to drop you. Then two up close and personal to 'finish' the job. Nothing worse than having a pissed off person you just shot come at you with their 'last gasp' as it were.

Again, I would ONLY use a knife as a last resort type of weapon. They just don't have the reach and though I've trained with them, not NEARLY as much as I've trained WITH firearms. So I'll always have a firearm at hand. Which is probably WHY I don't get out much any more.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Knives will never go out of style.You can`t cut with a gun and you can`t shoot with a knife.You need to have both.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I never made any such assumption.

I have experience in this area.

Makes good sense. This is why I like pocket carry for walking around, I can keep my hand on my weapon whenever I want and nobody knows about it unless I want them to.

Yup, barring a psychological stop the only thing that's going to stop a badguy is accurately putting shots on critical targets that penetrate deep enough to do dammage. People can absorb all kinds of dammage and survive or die much later. Bleeding to death can be a very slow proposition. Same goes for knives, I've seen girls really cut eachother to ribbons with their razors. It's a nasty mess, they try to make eachother ugly more than they try to kill eachother. Either way it's a stupid mentality.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Rev,
You are right on the button. The phsycology involved with being shot is huge. But short of a 'brain stem' type of shot, folks can 'keep on tickin' enough to kill you if you are not careful.

Knives are used for cutting. Like gutting that, er, deer after a firefight, er hunting expedition.

The sad part is most people have NO idea. I knew a guy a long time ago that used to work the docks around Houston. Got into a fight with the 'meat hooks' they used to move stuff around with. Took one right in his shoulder (I saw the entrance scar). What he did to the guy that 'tagged' him is best left unsaid. But he did 'cut him bad' as he said.

Knifes definately have a place. But being ANYBODIES first line of defense is not it's place. And if it's the ONLY offensive weapon you carry, then one can only hope that you are either a fast runner or you stay home a lot. I chose the latter, as with a distended hamstring I don't run very well anymore.

Gettin old does suck sometimes.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I see a knife first and foremost as a useful tool to have around. As far as use as a weapon of self defense goes, I see it as being handy for weapon retention, say somebody deliberately or accidentally grabs your gun or you can't reach it because you're grappling with the badguy. I'd prefer not to use a knife ever in self defense because of things HIV, hepatitis and other bloodborn diseases. Because of that I like other options for nonlethal response like pepperspray or an Asp baton. Pepperspray isn't a garaunteed fight stopper but it can significantly reduce the effectiveness of your opponent and you have to exercise your judgement with an Asp because they can break a bone or kill.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

fantastic conversation between wallew and rev

wallew good to know there's another judo player here! but I laid off about 6 years back after an injury. still some of the toughest and funnest martial sports play I can recall over 20 years of martial arts shorin ryu, tkd, aikido and judo!

now the only thing I train regularly is the style called "IDPA" or sometimes "IPSC" or USPSA" lol

but here is the thing. always people talk like it's a fight to the death. I haint had too many of those. none in fact. but I had plenty of fights. fights come in a social context. so do consequences. social context needs attention too. there is one guy who wrote well about this and it was "marc the animal macyoung" who used to sell books via paladin press. he talked a lot about techniques and styles in a social context. crazy idea, since most instructors and authors are always playing movie style killer badass bullshite. but the animal talked about context. talked well. wallew mentioned crowds, he avoid em. I cant avoid crowds, cant carry a piece lots of places I go, so I got to think about social context and how to deal with it. one exampe macyoung talks bout a lot, the old barfight, a context a lot of us have seen. how do they happen, how to avoid them, how to finish them fast, how to avoid killing somebody or getting killed and ending up in the wastebaskets of jail and the grave.

he was a big fan of tai otoshi (leg drop throw) irimi nage (spinout-clothesline throw) and another one I forget.

anyhow my point about weapons is, the best weapon is the one you got. the knife is small, inobtrusive, easy to carry and no big deal if you lose it or somebody detects it. the firearm, by contrast, is bigger, bulkier, easier to detect, and it can send people into a freakin tizzy. plus it's tied to you in most cases (talking id and records and stuff) and a hell of a lot harder to ditch if necessary. plus you got potential problems with LE all the time even if its legal.

a lockblade by contrast can just be a hunk of junk, a tool, not a deadly weapon. unless it needs to be. they are ubiquitous and nobody gives a crap about them. makes em easy to carry on a nearly 100% of the time basis so that if you TRULY need to use lethal force in self defense, you got something. like rev I can deploy my shiv PDQ and within 10 feet I dont see the guy with a firearm as having a major advantage. then again I never had to gut anybody. hope that never happens.

still it's also pretty easy to keep a sidearm in your car pretty much all the time. and carry if you need to. sad thing happened to one of my old shooting buddies, got murdered at work and his gun was in the car at the time. he wasnt allowed to have it in work. I wonder if he had a good shank in his pocket maybe he'd have made it through-

anyhow that reminds me, a good writer on the social context of the use of firearms is Massad Ayoob. I dont take with all his pistol techniques but his knowledge of juries and trials and such is really valuable to being able to confidently exercise your moral and legal right to self defense.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

you make some valid points.

regarding the 'id' thing. If you don't have AT LEAST one shotgun and one pistol that were made PRIOR to serial numbers (yes they are out there), then you need to start scouring the gun shows. Ivers & Johnson, Mossberg, and many other manufacturers whose names I forget can still be occasionally found with NO serial numbers.

That might relegate you to a pistol that's a .32 caliber or smaller. But having a 'throw away' firearm is a necessity if you are going to go on safari in todays modern urban jungles. There's alls sorts of legal firearms out there without serial numbers. THEY ARE OLD. Most made prior to WWI. BUT they are out there.

Having the ability to defends oneself, drop the firearm (you WERE wearing gloves, weren't you?) and just walk away can sometimes keep you out of a lot of worthless legal trouble. Note I didn't say 'call the police' and then walk away. Sometimes, you just gotta do what ya gotta do and then drop from the radar. Unsolved homicides are a dime a dozen, REGARDLESS of what the people on TV tell you.

So, if you find yourself outside your AO, with proper protection (that includes gloves) and you are required to defend yourself, you still can. You just need to plan in advance. If you haven't done that, well you are either dead or in deep kim chi, as it were.

Unless you get lucky like a guy here in Colorado did recently. On a trip to the local Grab N Go, one of the other patrons decided they had a problem with this guy. He tried to get into his car and drive off, when the other patron came at him with a tire iron. The guy produced a properly register and legally carried firearm. He gave THREE warnings (from ALL the other witnesses) and then promptly shot the guy dead, as he just kept coming. This so enraged dead guys girlfriend, that she picked up the tire iron, recieved the same warning and then two rounds in the chest. She survived.

NO CHARGES WERE EVER FILED. The grand jury convened, heard testimony, saw video surveillence and declared it a rightous shoot.

BUT THAT'S RARE. Even now, the guy could be exposed to civil lawsuits from the wounded girlfriend and the dead guys relatives...

So, if you wish a brush with out 'legal system' just remember this. It WILL COST YOU SOMETHING. What and how much is a little more under your control. It is in YOUR best interest to avoid entering the 'justice system' if at all possible. JUSTICE is the last thing you will receive.

two 7 word phrases and the five words
 

I know one guy who had to pop somebody in self defense. Right outside his house. Luckily the manimal lived. Grand jury heard the evidence and declined to bring charges for ADW or whatever the charge was called.

I knew another guy who got into a barfight, was plausibly defending himself, and sent this dude reeling backwards. Dude hit his head on the curb and goes into a coma. Luckily he comes out of it a week later. Prosecutor lets him off, entirely.

What if either one of those chumps had croaked. Bad news.

If you have to pop somebody in your house, do this: once the attack has been stopped and the agrressor is disarmed and immobilized-- and your weapon has been made safe but not tampered with in any way-- no dicking around with steak knives if you know what I mean-- just leave the situation as it is: 1-- call 911 for an ambulance and the police then 2-- call your lawyer.

If you dont know a lawyer then maybe now's the time to think about meeting one. If you seriously think you may have to defend yourself with lethal force you dont want to be shopping for lawyers from a jailhouse phone.

Make sure your dependents know that you acted in fear of your life and that they say as close to nothing as possible. Meet the police at the door unarmed and let them in. All you got to say is I was in fear of my life, and let em see what the deal is for themselves. Pretty much the only other thing you should say, other than repeating "I was in fear of my life" is I want to talk to a lawyer before I say anything else. Dont worry about getting arrested or not. Dont let them spook you into jabbering on and on or getting into the gory details. Dont let em trick you either. Keep as quiet as possible. Better to say nothing and get arrested and get your lawyer, then say the wrong thing and get convicted.

Repeat "I was in fear of my life" are the only magic words to say other than: "I want to talk to my lawyer" and if pressed by officials past that very simply "I have nothing to say."

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I've got a sign in our home. It was given to me by my little sister, who lives on a ranch in Texas.

The sign says:

WE DON'T DIAL 911

I don't. Calling the police pretty much GUARANTEES you will go to jail. At least over night. Perhaps for the rest of your life. EVEN if it was a rightous shoot.

So, it's your choice. Call the cops. Go to jail. Go to trial (expensive even if you WIN). Go to jail (if you lose). KEEP PAYING THAT LAWYER, because if you are in jail you will want help in getting out. If not, you can expect at the very least, civil lawsuits that you will need a lawyer for.

Good luck with ALL that.

Re: two 7 word phrases and the five words
 

Shoot. Shovel. Shut up.

:Zzzz:

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Hey that's why you got all that gold and silver squirreled away, right? lol

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Thats what you get with liberal gun control policies.

In Florida, We have the castle doctrine law. No jail, cant be sued. :coolbeer:

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

Shoot, Shovel, Shutup will get you a GUARANTEED trip to jail.

I think you always follow the law, besides wallew, we've got "make my day" laws here in Colorado. Compared to a lot of other states Colorado is pretty forgiving with home invasion shootings.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

SLV,

Shoot, Shovel and Shut up will ONLY get you jail time if there are witnesses.

If it's JUST YOU and the perp (dead perp) then the S,S & S does work.

At least, that's what SOMEBODY tole me offisser.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

No weapon, no body, no crime.

Re: Don't bring a gun to a knife fight
 

I say always follow the law, even the unjust, stupid, and unfair ones, which we have plenty of these days.

considering the ability of 'Big Brother" to track down what people say on the internet, I wouldnt want any of my presumptively anonymous comments being brought in to try and damn me. so I try and say only things that I stand having repeated in mixed company so to speak.

but people have a 5th amendment right not to incriminate themselves. by limiting your comment to "I was in fear of my life... now I want to talk to my lawyer" you invoke that right effectively. by trying to monkey with the "evidence" you actually commit a crime which is obstruction of justice. that is not a good idea and they can then ding you on that where you might've gotten off clean. doesnt seem like a good idea to me. follow the laws says I, even the unjust ones.